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Meteorological Winter 2022-23 Outlook Discussion - Analogs Posted


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21 minutes ago, tombo82685 said:

Maybe I’m reading this wrong but that looks like an average PV strength to me. I don’t see any indication there of a SSW. For a ssw you want it below 0

It’s a low res ensemble mean showing below climo normals 4-5 months out. Not even close to a slam dunk by any means but it’s not a bad look 

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9 hours ago, JamieO said:

I thought you guys might find this interesting. I saw it posted by Jesse Ferrell from AccuWx on Twitter.

https://www.severe-weather.eu/global-weather/cold-anomaly-stratosphere-polar-vortex-volcanic-cooling-winter-influence-fa/

Nice write-up, did a good job of covering limitations.

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  • 3 weeks later...
54 minutes ago, Allsnow said:

Perhaps this is the October that ends below normal for @Rainshadow stat on the following day winter 

Coolest October since 2009, 2011 & 2015 not a reach at the moment.  Enso matches not great. Not as common to have a cool October during nina(s).  Though I could see 2000-01 making the cut if November is also cool.

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3 hours ago, ErieWX said:

Is there some sort of statistical correlation with cold octobers and winter snowfall or something? 

I did a paper when an intern in NYC that saw a correlation between Oct & Nov temps and ensuing winter temperatures.  This covered 1900-1987.   Positive correlation, warmth begot warmth, cold begot cold I'd say about 65-70% of the time. Part of the problem now is that October is warming and I am having issues how to best account for this.  I think Cohen whether he wants to admit it or not is running into the same problem with October snowfall extent in Siberia.  When every October is warm or every October has above normal snow extent how do you differentiate now with what worked better in the past. 

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44 minutes ago, Rainshadow said:

I found the thread and the 30 yr period table.  When I tried to open it, it wouldn't on my PC.

 

oct.JPG

Detailed and useful data. Last winter was interesting, scorching October and December that drove a warmer winter overall, but not an overall shutout as winter was salvaged Jan-March. Really goes to show warming potential in early winter (December was +7 here) that I’d rather forget about and also how things can change halfway through the season. 

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3 hours ago, ErieWX said:

Detailed and useful data. Last winter was interesting, scorching October and December that drove a warmer winter overall, but not an overall shutout as winter was salvaged Jan-March. Really goes to show warming potential in early winter (December was +7 here) that I’d rather forget about and also how things can change halfway through the season. 

There are some dogs of winter that happen with any enso phase, but the ones that stand out as being most likely to occur are during an extremely strong nino (not a nino that just makes it to strong ala 1957-8, 2009-10) or a strong nina.  The latter I am not sure without some climo adjustment by CPC came be realized in real time. Otherwise there are extenuating circumstances that can enhance (SSW's) or detract (MJO living in phase 4) for any given winter that really can't be outlooked before winter starts.  

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11 hours ago, Rainshadow said:

I did a paper when an intern in NYC that saw a correlation between Oct & Nov temps and ensuing winter temperatures.  This covered 1900-1987.   Positive correlation, warmth begot warmth, cold begot cold I'd say about 65-70% of the time. Part of the problem now is that October is warming and I am having issues how to best account for this.  I think Cohen whether he wants to admit it or not is running into the same problem with October snowfall extent in Siberia.  When every October is warm or every October has above normal snow extent how do you differentiate now with what worked better in the past. 

PHL Octobers. Could use regression or a Loess fit (below) to account for warming trend. Looking at recent years vs the Loess fit gives following buckets: "warm" 2021+2017, "normal" 2019+2016, "cool" 2020+2018

 

Screenshot 2022-10-02 at 05-43-55 xmACIS2.png

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48 minutes ago, Chubbs said:

PHL Octobers. Could use regression or a Loess fit (below) to account for warming trend. Looking at recent years vs the Loess fit gives following buckets: "warm" 2021+2017, "normal" 2019+2016, "cool" 2020+2018

 

Screenshot 2022-10-02 at 05-43-55 xmACIS2.png

Wow no wonder it feels like fall is only 2 weeks long before winter sets in...maybe this Oct will buck the trend

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Anyone woth Weatherbell bother to look at the October Cansips forecast? Tropical Tidbits usually updates on the 1st of the month with the 0z run of the 1st but not this time.

Fyi, searching for the Cansips on the web got me a link to a UK site that showed the first 2 forecast periods to be BN and the rest way AN. But it's a crummy site and I'm not sure if the forecast periods are even months and, if so, if the 1st month is October or November.  

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1 hour ago, Chubbs said:

PHL Octobers. Could use regression or a Loess fit (below) to account for warming trend. Looking at recent years vs the Loess fit gives following buckets: "warm" 2021+2017, "normal" 2019+2016, "cool" 2020+2018

 

Screenshot 2022-10-02 at 05-43-55 xmACIS2.png

I have been moving the goal posts and trying to concentrate on the last 30 years only, dividing those Octobers into thirds.  Behind that it is more of an eye test as how far off the POR mean the October falls. Into the 1990s that mean was pretty stable and now….

What site generated that graph?

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55 minutes ago, Mitchnick said:

Anyone woth Weatherbell bother to look at the October Cansips forecast? Tropical Tidbits usually updates on the 1st of the month with the 0z run of the 1st but not this time.

Fyi, searching for the Cansips on the web got me a link to a UK site that showed the first 2 forecast periods to be BN and the rest way AN. But it's a crummy site and I'm not sure if the forecast periods are even months and, if so, if the 1st month is October or November.  

Near normal Dec, Jan. Slightly above Feb, Mar.

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15 minutes ago, Rainshadow said:

I have been moving the goal posts and trying to concentrate on the last 30 years only, dividing those Octobers into thirds.  Behind that it is more of an eye test as how far off the POR mean the October falls. Into the 1990s that mean was pretty stable and now….

What site generated that graph?

Like this site for obs plotting

https://xmacis.rcc-acis.org/

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2 hours ago, Mitchnick said:

Anyone woth Weatherbell bother to look at the October Cansips forecast? Tropical Tidbits usually updates on the 1st of the month with the 0z run of the 1st but not this time.

Fyi, searching for the Cansips on the web got me a link to a UK site that showed the first 2 forecast periods to be BN and the rest way AN. But it's a crummy site and I'm not sure if the forecast periods are even months and, if so, if the 1st month is October or November.  

I looked at the 500mb anomalies vs the temperature profiles and fwiw (probably $0.04) it is the traditional nina starting off quickly in December and having a torchy February.  

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  • Rainshadow changed the title to Meteorological Winter 2022-23 Outlook Discussion - Analogs Posted

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